CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 9 - Art Poll 4

What art should be used for CAP 11?


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Come on Kukem! Only 5% behind!

Kukem's design is badass. That's all there is to it.
Wrong, so wrong, the point of this entire poll is that there is so much more to it. I have yet to see a fully developed and reasoned argument in Kukem's favor, while I see several in support of Doug

EVERY argument is subjective, but I'll try to cover the common points.

1: Doug's design doesn't look like a fighting type.

Well to be honest, I can make that claim about several Pokemon, even though you may not agree. Breloom is a devastating Fighting-type in the metagame, yet it doesn't have boxing gloves or bulging muscles. Herasross and Toxicroak don't exactly scream "Fighting" either.

That said, Voodoom, as he is now affectionately called, has several Fighting elements. Large fists, a brown color scheme, an arsenal of needle weapons, and even the battle-chipped eye all represent the Fighting type.

2: We already have Baynette as a puppet Pokemon.

Har de' frickin' har. If you ask me this excuse is just plain lazy, petty, and in fact, downright ignorant. How many Rodents are there in Pokemon again? More to the point, they aren't all the same type. Most are normal, while Pokemon's mascot is an Electric-type. In fact, I'll cover the Looks like a Ghost argument in the same breath. Doll may equal creepy, but it certainly doesn't mean undead. Doug even went out of his way to explain the use of dark magic, which involves far more skills then simple necromancy.

While we're playing the type challenge game, other then color, what exactly about Kukem's entry conveys the Dark type?

3: It looks wrong for the stats we picked.

Another case of jumping the gun. The Pokemon may not be the size of the Pillsbury Doughboy, we haven't discussed height and weight yet. I could be shallow and just say "it can because we vote it can," but I have a better argument. Speed for example. Before even knowing weight, I ask you how do you think such a Pokemon will move? I see more cartwheeling, and throwing itself around as opposed to running on those stumpy legs, and it works even better considering the "dirty fighting" theme present in several entries. While I can also see the point of seeing Doug's entry as a Physical attacker, I say, that's what the dark magic of the backstory is for. Voodoom won't punch with a stuffed hand doing little damage, he'll use that needle as a wand or shoot a Kamehameha of black juju.

This is not an attack against Kukem, and I'm going to make this same argument against Doug's design as well. Passionate as your opinions get, they're still opinions! appropriateness is relative, and some factors appeal more to voters then others. Others carry more weight.

All in all, I encourage you to be comfortable in your choice, whatever the reasons, but we shouldn't look down on others for our choices.

On a last note to Kukem, I will say that you have a well done design, but for several reasons, Doug's design just appeals to me more. It's still close, and whatever direction the scales tip, I hope we can all learn to live with the final selection.
 

SJCrew

Believer, going on a journey...
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Wrong, so wrong, the point of this entire poll is that there is so much more to it. I have yet to see a fully developed and reasoned argument in Kukem's favor, while I see several in support of Doug
How long is it going to take you guys to realize that this isn't a debate, just a mini-contest to see whose art the community wants for CAP11? Nobody needs "arguments" to decide which design they think is the coolest and most befitting, they just need an opinion and a reason to stand by it.

This poll is entirely subjective and based on neither data nor evidence, so there's no real debate to be had here. Discussion, sure, but don't pretend for a second you or anyone else here can fabricate the reasoning behind your vote as anything more than pure personal preference.
 
Out of these two, Kukem gets my vote.

While both designs are good, Voodoom looks more like a mono Ghost-type than anything, possibly even (part) Normal too. At the very least, it doesn't appear to represent the Fighting-type particularly well (though it still looks as if it might be able to pull Dark off.)

Kukem's Pokémon looks like a Dark/Fighting-type, but it's still the closest out of the two (for some reason though it's still reminding me a little of the Poison-type actually, probably because of the purple...))

Going into the stat-side of things, Kukem's Pokémon also looks like it would 'fit into them' better than Voodoom. It doesn't look extremely bulky, but 90 HP/80 Def/Sp. Def isn't much of a stretch. It looks fast as well, though it looks like it would have a larger Atk stat in relation to its Sp. Atk (the gem things on its hands compensate for that a little though; they look like something a Specially-oriented Pokémon would have.) Likewise, Voodoom gives off an impression of being bulkier than 90 HP/80 Def/80 Sp. Def. It also doesn't look especially fast either, and it, like Kukem's Pokémon, looks like it would have a larger Atk in relation to its Sp. Atk.

One thing to note however, is that Voodoom looks like it could pull the abilities off better than Kukem's Pokémon (needles versus gem-things (which I assume is part of the reason why they're there.))

In conclusion, not to say Voodoom's bad or anything (in fact it's pretty cool), but overall Kukem's Pokémon fits the position better, and it's for that reason they have my vote.
 
How long is it going to take you guys to realize that this isn't a debate, just a mini-contest to see whose art the community wants for CAP11? Nobody needs "arguments" to decide which design they think is the coolest and most befitting, they just need an opinion and a reason to stand by it.

This poll is entirely subjective and based on neither data nor evidence, so there's no real debate to be had here. Discussion, sure, but don't pretend for a second you or anyone else here can fabricate the reasoning behind your vote as anything more than pure personal preference.
Exactly. There aren't any points being made here that weren't made in this first three Art Polls, or any of the polls for the first ten CAPs for that matter.
There's no point debating over something as subjective as art preference.
 
There's no point debating over something as subjective as art preference.
True, however this shouldn't be about preferences per se, it should be about what Pokémon looks like they fit better.

A 'bit' of an exaggerated example, but what do you think is more realistic as a Pokémon with let's say Normal/Flying typing with the ability Intimidate with base stats of 80 HP / 120 Atk / 60 Def / 60 Sp. Atk / 60 Sp. Def / 130 Spd: a cute, innocent looking Snail Pokémon with small wings that looks fairly bulky but also looks pathetically slow and only averagely powerful, or a generic bird (touched up to be at least only about 40% generic) that looks fairly intimidating, strong and swift, but also frail? Sure the snail may overall look a bit 'cooler' than the bird in the majority's eyes, but at the same time it looks like anything but intimidating, strong, fast and frail, which logically should make it an easy victory for the bird.

For the sake of example let's say that while the majority thought the snail was more badass than the bird, they also recognized that it just doesn't play the part of the designed Pokémon, and so ultimately they opted for the still fairly cool bird Pokémon (it must be at the very least decent otherwise it wouldn't have made it to the end.) This should work in a similar manner (that being said obviously everybody has their own views on what looks like it fits everything better, and the Voodoom/Kukem's Pokémon 'showdown' isn't open-and-shut like my example, but your vote for should be based on which of them looks like it fits better, not who looks cooler.)
 

peng

policy goblin
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To be honest, the whole project is designed mainly to test the metagame, not to make a cool-looking new pokemon. Flavour has nothing to do with this really, and you should just be picking which Pokemon you would rather use or come up against in battles. A lot of people are taking this part really seriously, whereas this should be easily the most laid back part of the CAP project, where you just pick the design you like better.

I don't see why people are claiming some artists work does not fit the stat distribution/ability, seeing as that shouldn't really affect your decision too much, not to mention it being insulting to the artist.
 
How long is it going to take you guys to realize that this isn't a debate, just a mini-contest to see whose art the community wants for CAP11? Nobody needs "arguments" to decide which design they think is the coolest and most befitting, they just need an opinion and a reason to stand by it.

This poll is entirely subjective and based on neither data nor evidence, so there's no real debate to be had here. Discussion, sure, but don't pretend for a second you or anyone else here can fabricate the reasoning behind your vote as anything more than pure personal preference.
If that's the case, then why are we allowed to post in these threads at all? If I just say "I vote for X", that's a rulebreak. If I say "I vote for X because Y", there will invariably be someone who doesn't think Y is a good reason (pointless arguments ensue) or who thinks Y doesn't fit X as much as Y fits Z (pointless arguments ensue again), so if pointless arguments are bad, then I shouldn't give my reasons for voting X. Ultimately, this leaves me with nothing to post and the same goes for everyone else except the TL, whose only posts would be the OP and the "poll's closed" post.
 
I voted for Doug, as I think his is just visually and conceptually more interesting than Kukem's, which seems like the basic "Dark/Fighting" template some supercomputer would spit out if that type combo was input. It is true Doug's looks a bit ghost-y, but there are plenty of Pokemon that don't necessarily look their types. It is a unique idea with great execution. Yay!
 
Kukem's design seems a little too similar to Zoroark and Lucario for my liking, and the typing combined with that makes for a rather unoriginal Pokemon, Doug's design gives it more originality and I like the design more anyway.
 
I voted for Kukem. His looks more like a fighting type and more like a dark type then dougs. Dougs seems to cant really put it well soft to be a fighting/dark. I like both of them and it took me about 30 minutes looking at both to decides by I like Kukem's more. His is only a few votes away, its going to be close.
 
umbr, umbreonftw and umbriel have voted for the same design, maybe just by chance?
Umbrelava gives you props.

Umbreon Dan, however, breaks your theory entirely.

Anyways, I like both designs, but my like of the Sonic franchise led me to vote the lesser-voted Kukem.

I'd be content with DJD, though. Both designs are awesome, and hey, a voodoo doll using Submission actually makes a small amount o' flavor sense.
 
DougJustDoug. Kukem's just doesn't look quite right to me. It's really hard to explain, but I think the voodoll looks more.. Pokemon-y.
 
Okay, my final vote is for DougJustDoug. Every pokemon is based off something you can recognize, and while Voodoom is obvious, Kukem's is called the Dark Loris Pokemon, and I fail to see the resemblance. I also think Volt Absorb/Lightningrod is exectued better in Voodoom.

Also, we don't have a pure voodo pokemon yet, though Banette is similar.

But, if we consider CAP11 to be a ninja:
Nicada: the Trainee Pokemon
Ninjask: the Ninja Pokemon

Different body style, same inner concept. So I don't think that "Banette is too similar" is a good reason not to vote for DougJustDoug. Just some thoughts, both concepts have their own pros and cons, but most have been stated already.
But they are in the same evolution chain?

I voted for Kukem, because Doug's honestly looks more like Normal/Dark or Ghost/Dark than Fighting/Dark, at least to me.

And it doesn't HAVE to resemble something everyone can recognize. What the hell is a Blissey supposed to be? Or a Claydol?
 
At first I voted DougJustDoug because I loved both concepts yet Doug's made more sense with battle. However, now wishing I could take my vote back, Kukem looks like it fits the battling more. I really wouldn't mind both for CAP11, but Kukem really deserves it in the end.
 
At first I voted DougJustDoug because I loved both concepts yet Doug's made more sense with battle. However, now wishing I could take my vote back, Kukem looks like it fits the battling more. I really wouldn't mind both for CAP11, but Kukem really deserves it in the end.
Damn, seems most sites I've been to don't have a Change Vote option...
 

iss

let's play bw lc!
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Voted for Doug. imho, Kukem's is too overdone. These two were the only ones I chose in the bold poll though! Good job to you both.
 
Voted for DJD. I believe that it doesn't matter if it doesn't look like its typing, as this would mean vibrava should be a bug type, and that gyarados should be dragon. I also love DJD's explanation of abilities and the fighting type. I can just imagine of it sticking its pin into jigglypuff and laughing maniacally as it flies away.
 

SJCrew

Believer, going on a journey...
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
If that's the case, then why are we allowed to post in these threads at all? If I just say "I vote for X", that's a rulebreak. If I say "I vote for X because Y", there will invariably be someone who doesn't think Y is a good reason (pointless arguments ensue) or who thinks Y doesn't fit X as much as Y fits Z (pointless arguments ensue again), so if pointless arguments are bad, then I shouldn't give my reasons for voting X. Ultimately, this leaves me with nothing to post and the same goes for everyone else except the TL, whose only posts would be the OP and the "poll's closed" post.
It's not complicated, just post telling us who you voted for and give us a reason for it. If you disagree, you can still post and say so. That is called "discussion". Arguing somebody's "points" and claiming they're wrong for what they like or their reasoning isn't valid is a debate. There is a difference between "I disagree, here is what I think." and "Your points are invalid, where is your evidence?". There are a million places on Smogon to start a debate, this just isn't one of them.
 
Man, this is a close poll. As I type this, there is a difference of ten votes, and a percentage difference of 2% (49%/51%).

I voted for DJD. I think it fits the typing just fine. I also really like the concept of the design. While there already is Banette, Kukem's looks like a Luxray/Lucario/Zoroark mix, while Doug's design is completely original.
 
umbr, umbreonftw and umbriel have voted for the same design, maybe just by chance?
http://www.smogon.com/forums/member.php?u=17367http://www.smogon.com/forums/member.php?u=17367
I assure you I'm not umbr or umbreonftw. Umbriel is actually a character from Alexander Pope's "The Rape of the Lock". And if I remember correctly, in these sorts of polls, somebody checks all the IP addresses to see if people are making fake accounts for more votes. Usually they don't find anyone.

I could give reasons why I voted for Kukem's design, but as others have stated, by now it's not relevant. In the long run, the design of the created pokemon isn't as important as the concept itself and what it accomplishes in the OU metagame.
 
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