May I just address the fact that aegislash will always and i mean always take something down with it. There is no casual counter for it in ou, you have to be running something ESPECIALLY JUST for aegislash. Being Mandibuzz and Bisharp Which screams over centralized. What can take this this down 1v1 besides those two? Ok, lets say the aegislash is a physical one, you messed up or mispredicted or maybe played it right but there was nothing you could do and it got to +6 attack with its cheap ass swords dance. I challenge you to find something else in ou that can stop a +6 aegislash and kill it besides its two counters. Lets take the bulkiest thing in ou besides aegislash himself because another cheap attribute of his is being insanely bulky which ties aegislash himself, diancie. Even with a bold set running all evs on defense it gets OHKO'd by iron head which aegislash actually OUTSPEEDS even with a brave nature so its bye bye diancie. Even if you run speed on diancie which nobody does, whatre you gonna do? Diamond storm it? Moonblast it? anyways it doesnt matter because its not really a counter and it never has been. Next thing is skarmory. Skarmory takes a +6 sneak living with less then half. Then what? youre gonna brave bird it? Thats not doing anything even to blade aegislash and youre dead. Ok next up venusaur, incredibly bulky. You get shadow sneaked, you live with less than half, hp fire the blade aegislash and at full hp AN AEGISLASH BLADE WILL LIVE IT. Shadow sneak you're dead. Aegislash WILL sweep your team if you dont deal with the swords dance immediately, and if you mess up, youre gone. Is it really fair that one mess up or misprediction can cost you the game?
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np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition
- Thread starter gr8astard
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Actually, Jolly Scarf Excadrill is specifically to take down Adamant Charizard X after a Dragon Dance. Otherwise Adamant out speeds the entire unboosted meta, even Mega Manectric. (Wait, how did I get here? What does this have to do with Aegislash lol)
Actually, on the Starmie subject, I actually believe it isn't used because of competition from Greninja, who boasts slightly better stats, same coverage as Starmie (except no T-Bolt but HP Electric is actually stronger) and Protean. Yeah Rapid Spin is a huge niche over Greninja . . . only when Aegislash isn't around to completely block it. Personally I've been using Trick-Scarf sets which lure in Aegislash and cripple it effortlessly, though it still can't spin until the opponent sacrifices their crippled Aegislash.
Kyu B. . .
C'mon now, man, you can't bring WAY out in left field arguments and expect not to get taken seriously. Landorus T comes in takes a shadow ball, and can OHKO in return if they stay in. Mandi and Bisharp aren't the ONLY stops to this thing, you're exaggerating quite a bit to make a moot point.
If it gets to +6 it means two things. You have something to stop it (the only reason I know Kyu-b lives a +6 Shadow sneak is because I experienced it), or it's your own damn fault.
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This is exactly why I'm anti-aegislash ban. When I was the vgc nationals, everytime there was an aegislash the players would sarcastically say "I wonder what he'll do next" and the aegislash owner would laugh along with them. Aegislash is just too easy to get around.
1. VGC is not OU
2. This is exactly the issue with King's Shield. You DON'T know what Aegislash is going to do (in fact that's one of the things that makes Aegislash so good in VGC >__>). You can be in blade-forme and your opponent will think, "oh he'll definitely King's Shield this turn" only to be smacked in the fucking face with a Shadow Ball or Secret Sword or Flash Cannon. That's the definition of a 50/50. You might think you know what it's going to do but you fucking don't.
Oh I know it's not ou I'm just saying it's not a secret that it's predictable. Trust me, I know how different they are. And I personally I'd say 90% of the time I do correctly predict him. It's just not that difficult
Dread Arceus
total cockhead
Can you teach me how to read minds =O
No but seriously, "I can predict" is about the worst argument you can use. Prediction is a two-way street, you know-what if the Aegislash player can predict you 90% of the time?
Well honestly, I think that that's just be a good strategist. Please don't try to read more into what I'm saying here, all I mean is just if he gets banned, let it be because it hurts, not because some people can't predict it right. I never correctly predict a gliscor but that alone doesn't make it op
Admittedly, Gliscor doesn't have the added effect of dropping your attack two stages. He also doesn't have a base 150 Atk/SpA.
Let's be real here, King shield is the reason this thing is going up. If it didn't exist, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Stance Change as well, but to a lesser extent.
Banning Aegislash because Starmie isn't viable anymore is the worst argument I've heard, and if the powers that be allow that as the reason for banning Aegislash, it will be very apparent that they have already made up their minds. I love Starmie as much as the next guy, but the meta has changed. Even if it were true, why is this actually an argument? I bet every Pokemon in OU is singlehandedly keeping one or more Pokemon in UU or BL down there, that's called being in OU and being a good Pokemon.
But truly, there is more at work than Aegislash. Knock Off is huge now, Assault Vest makes it a lot less useful as well, add in there the fact that Excadrill is better at that job, and not to mention, probably one of the most overlooked reasons, Defog. Defog being so common is making Rapid Spinners less useful. Saying that Rapid Spinners are the only real removers of hazards anymore would be stupid.
Aegislash is definitely a good Pokemon, maybe the best in OU. But it is very, very predictable, and with 50/50 defenses (usually uninvested), the opposing player is one move away from losing it. It's very susceptible to Status, Knock Off, Foul Play, a lot of common moves, Trick is also a good option for giving it something that will hamper it. I'm with Cilan, obviously predictability hasn't been regarded as a legitimate excuse (but neither has "Starmie should be OU, so let's ban these things keeping it out") thus far, but this is the most predictable Pokemon in the game, and in all my times playing OU this year, I've had an Aegislash beat me one time.
Besides, there is a cascading effect here, ban the best thing, the next best thing becomes the best thing and it gets suspected.
But truly, there is more at work than Aegislash. Knock Off is huge now, Assault Vest makes it a lot less useful as well, add in there the fact that Excadrill is better at that job, and not to mention, probably one of the most overlooked reasons, Defog. Defog being so common is making Rapid Spinners less useful. Saying that Rapid Spinners are the only real removers of hazards anymore would be stupid.
Aegislash is definitely a good Pokemon, maybe the best in OU. But it is very, very predictable, and with 50/50 defenses (usually uninvested), the opposing player is one move away from losing it. It's very susceptible to Status, Knock Off, Foul Play, a lot of common moves, Trick is also a good option for giving it something that will hamper it. I'm with Cilan, obviously predictability hasn't been regarded as a legitimate excuse (but neither has "Starmie should be OU, so let's ban these things keeping it out") thus far, but this is the most predictable Pokemon in the game, and in all my times playing OU this year, I've had an Aegislash beat me one time.
Besides, there is a cascading effect here, ban the best thing, the next best thing becomes the best thing and it gets suspected.
Aegislash isn't the most predictable pokemon in the game -_- almost 70 pages of people arguing against this point over and over... Predict the KS and get a Shadow Ball to the face. I've killed so many opposing pokemon who anticipated the KS, prediction comes from both sides and saying that just because you have predicted well, that Aegislash is predictable, doesn't make sense. I was never beaten by Mega Kangaskhan, does that mean it wasn't broken?
Hi.
First, you can't predict everything. Nobody can get all predicts right. While you may talk about "90/10s" and stuff like that, you never know what your opponent is going to do at all. Regardless, the focus here should definitely not be about Aegislash's 50/50s, even though they are important and all. It also shouldn't be about how Excadrill beats Aegislash. Or if Aegislash beats Quagsire. Or if Excadrill should run Jolly, lol.
The point here should be Aegislash's influence not only in the current metagame, but also in the future. While it may have amazing stats, great typing, etc, these are not reasons for a ban, at least not directly. Aegislash being so good made XY OU center around it. Without Aegislash, XY OU would be a completely different Metagame from the start. While I know there are good ways of centralizing a Metagame and etc, the Metagame created around Aegislash, the XY OU we know now, is not a good Metagame in my opinion. Some people may like it, but I don't. Seeing how Aegislash is what made XY OU what it is, banning it would be the best way to try to make XY OU better. I think no one can deny XY OU grew around Aegislash.
In fact, I was on the anti-ban side at first. While I agreed Aegislash shaped XY OU and all, I was afraid of its ban ultimately killing Stall by encouraging the use of Heracross, Gardevoir, etc. Yes, they are great against Stall, and Aegislash restrains their usage. However, having Aegislash on the tier will not make a Stall team better at handling them. Many Stall teams don't even run Aegislash in the first place, and they are in a bad situation if they face Medi/Hera/Garde regardless of Aegislash's presence lowering their usage. Most Stall teams are already very matchup-reliant even with Aegislash on the tier to "regulate" those Megas' use, and I doubt their use will be much higher than it is now once the metagame settles down. I also based my initial decision on my experiences on the suspect ladder, which were far from good. In fact, they were ridiculous at first. But then I noticed that it all happened right after another ban, and banning Aegislash would make XY OU change too much, making 2 weeks not enough to see how a true Aegislash-less meta would be (also considering most people just used generic teams in order to get reqs and not actually seeing how the Metagame would be without Aegislash). All I saw was a ladder without Aegislash, but not a Metagame without Aegislash.
Aegislash's presence as a "regulator" creates the false illusion that a lot of things aren't broken when, in fact, they are. If Aegislash isn't banned, very few things will change after the next Suspect Tests, and the Metagame will not improve, I'm pretty sure. More of a "regulator that deregulates". The best possible way of improving in the mid/long run is banning Aegislash. Banning Aegislash would outright create the perfect tier? Of course not, but it may (and probably will) cause XY OU to improve a lot in the future. When deciding your opinion on Aegislash, just think if this is the Metagame you want, if it is a desirable, balanced one. The answer I came up with is that it is not, which is why I changed my vote to ban after voting for "do not ban" at first.
First, you can't predict everything. Nobody can get all predicts right. While you may talk about "90/10s" and stuff like that, you never know what your opponent is going to do at all. Regardless, the focus here should definitely not be about Aegislash's 50/50s, even though they are important and all. It also shouldn't be about how Excadrill beats Aegislash. Or if Aegislash beats Quagsire. Or if Excadrill should run Jolly, lol.
The point here should be Aegislash's influence not only in the current metagame, but also in the future. While it may have amazing stats, great typing, etc, these are not reasons for a ban, at least not directly. Aegislash being so good made XY OU center around it. Without Aegislash, XY OU would be a completely different Metagame from the start. While I know there are good ways of centralizing a Metagame and etc, the Metagame created around Aegislash, the XY OU we know now, is not a good Metagame in my opinion. Some people may like it, but I don't. Seeing how Aegislash is what made XY OU what it is, banning it would be the best way to try to make XY OU better. I think no one can deny XY OU grew around Aegislash.
In fact, I was on the anti-ban side at first. While I agreed Aegislash shaped XY OU and all, I was afraid of its ban ultimately killing Stall by encouraging the use of Heracross, Gardevoir, etc. Yes, they are great against Stall, and Aegislash restrains their usage. However, having Aegislash on the tier will not make a Stall team better at handling them. Many Stall teams don't even run Aegislash in the first place, and they are in a bad situation if they face Medi/Hera/Garde regardless of Aegislash's presence lowering their usage. Most Stall teams are already very matchup-reliant even with Aegislash on the tier to "regulate" those Megas' use, and I doubt their use will be much higher than it is now once the metagame settles down. I also based my initial decision on my experiences on the suspect ladder, which were far from good. In fact, they were ridiculous at first. But then I noticed that it all happened right after another ban, and banning Aegislash would make XY OU change too much, making 2 weeks not enough to see how a true Aegislash-less meta would be (also considering most people just used generic teams in order to get reqs and not actually seeing how the Metagame would be without Aegislash). All I saw was a ladder without Aegislash, but not a Metagame without Aegislash.
Aegislash's presence as a "regulator" creates the false illusion that a lot of things aren't broken when, in fact, they are. If Aegislash isn't banned, very few things will change after the next Suspect Tests, and the Metagame will not improve, I'm pretty sure. More of a "regulator that deregulates". The best possible way of improving in the mid/long run is banning Aegislash. Banning Aegislash would outright create the perfect tier? Of course not, but it may (and probably will) cause XY OU to improve a lot in the future. When deciding your opinion on Aegislash, just think if this is the Metagame you want, if it is a desirable, balanced one. The answer I came up with is that it is not, which is why I changed my vote to ban after voting for "do not ban" at first.
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First I'd like to say getting to +6 on aegislash isnt very hard. It involves weakness policy and switching in on something thatll have no effect on it, you swords dance, they switch out to something that does damage, you swords dance again and they use a super effective move that doesnt kill aegislash because his bulk is ridiculous, and youre at +6.
Ok, why the hell would you go for shadow sneak on a kyurem B? So the aegislash at full hp starts swords dancing. You switch in kyurem B, whatre you gonna do to it? Mixed kyurem B earth power? thats what does the most damage and it only does around 1/3 of shield aegislash's hp. Then, the opponent knowing shadow sneak wouldn't do anything, your opponent instead goes for the sacred sword. Your kyurem B aint living a +2 secret sword. and you see, youve only gotten aegislash to around 60% and hes taken down an entire pokemon. My biggest problem with aegislash is that it that usually it takes more than one counter for this to kill it, if you don't have a direct counter like either mandibuzz or bisharp, Aegislash is going to take down at least two pokemon or even 3 with it. Heck, if you only have two pokemon with super effective moves against it and they both die, whats stopping aegislash from swords dancing in his shield form, while you do miniscule damage to it, and sweeping your entire team?
252 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 172-203 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
......................
(Specially based Life Orb kyu-b is basically the best and most common set by the way, no kyu-b set runs zero sp. att investment lol)
Very nice contribution, aegislash still gets the OHKO with sacred sword nothing changes.
Without Prior damage, Kyu-B would win the 1v1. If you were talking about WP Aegi, then you should invest in being more specific. Can't make a blanket statement about a Pokemon, but be talking about one of its many sets.
also, in order for WP to activate, it's not going to be at full HP. It outspeeds laughs and moves on with its life.
252 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 218-258 (55.7 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 291-343 (74.4 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
All I can say is whoever let's an aegislash get to +6 in the first place without some prior damage.. doesn't know what they're doing half the time.
Even if weakness policy is involved he's not outspeeding kyurem with sacred sword and he'll die to earth power anyway (prior damage to activate it).. oh and if he tries to SS that's a guarenteed OHKO should he be +6 at 100% health..
Nope, you weren't listening to my previous post. Whats going to happen, is that you switch aegislash on something that cant do shit to it, which many pokemon cant. So the aegislash swords dances as you send your kyurem b out. You earth power and if you're a special set you do about 50% as a +2 aegislash OHKOS the kyurem B. Next time, please take the effort to read what i said better.
Even then, what you said is completely inaccurate???? I mean the aegislash is at +2 and theyre both at full health. And you think Fucking kyurem b can OHKO aegislash shield with earth power? You're dead wrong buddy. That aegislash is living, getting the weakness policy BEFORE it attacks, and proceeds to give you a +2 sacred sword, safe to say, kyurem B aint living that.
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Ok. Many people aren't listening to what I said. The aegislash is on the field first. Its at full HP. Aegislash uses swords dance knowing the opponent will have to switch. The opponent switches to kyurem B, as you guys said. Kyurem B uses earth power. Aegislash doesnt die due to its ridiculous bulk. Weakness policy or not, a +2 aegislash gets OHKO with sacred sword. If it did have weakness policy, youre gonna have to deal with a +4 aegislash now. "well lets say the kyurem B didnt switch into aegislash and its a 1v1." you say. Well ok, both are at full hp, kyurem with life orb, aegislash with weakness policy, as you said. Kyurem B goes first, activates WP, aegislash goes for the sacred sword and thats a dead kyurem b.
Actually, you didn't say anything about the circumstance it's in. I can make that same argument for Terrakion. . .
You said
And I did. Once I did, you started adding scenarios.
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Ok, yes kyurem black can take a +6 shadow sneak not a +6 sacred sword or an iron head though? I mean why would the aegislash go for the shadow sneak when he knows it wont kill, rather than just taking kyurems hit and killing it?
You kind of just proved his point. 95% of the time Aegislash takes down another 'mon with it. :P And Aegislash could easily win in 1v1 if it has Weakness Policy, which is the second most run item on it.
I can make up scenarios too.. look a choice locked garchomp! Let's bring in a levitating or flying type sweeper and setup up and kill/cripple the incoming would be check!
Why are we even using kyurem-b for this scenario anyway? He's BL, poor typing to ever counter anything with fighting coverage, and his special attack is subpar..
Oh and by the way..
+2 252 Atk Aegislash-Shield Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 218-258 (55.7 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+4 252 Atk Aegislash-Shield Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 328-386 (83.8 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sure he can shadow sneak but he's not OHKOing kyurem-b without being crippled first.
Aegislash has difficulty sweeping at +6.. there are alot of sweepers who just need 1 dragon dance to crush teams.. and aegislash is the most threatning (if at all) sweeper out there?
Good luck using sacred sword with an aegislash shield buddy. And I admit there are some scenarios where aegislash cant do much, but then you switch out. But the problem with this thing is theres so few scenarios which he has a disadvantage in.
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